Curse

Amity and Truth · Nov 20, 2006, 02:22 PM // 14:22

The rage is there because A-Net is keeping a very low profile on this issue. The players are left hanging with this problem. And everytime they play they notice this silly mob behavior and everytime they ask themselves "why?". No one is answering them, the total ignorance towards this issue feels like a huge middle finger.
Thus, the rage is coming from the well of silence on this matter.

Esprit · Nov 20, 2006, 02:30 PM // 14:30

So the end game mobs are hard, I like that. It makes exploring a lot tougher, but I like that if I am not on the ball my party suffers. Mobs in most of the game are relatively easy, you go up against 8:4 or 8:6 most of the time. As soon as a mob beats you down in succession you start raging.

Worried about patrols? Park your AI group with a waypoint and whip out your bow and pull that mob back to a safe area where you can decimate them in peace.

If a group keeps re-aggroing when you get close to your team wait until their aggro bubble returns to normal, they are probably in alert mode, any smart group will hang around the area if you might come back.

It may be a little too sensitive, but not to the degree where you rage for hours... in my opinion.

Lord Sojar · Nov 20, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

So the end game mobs are hard, I like that. It makes exploring a lot tougher, but I like that if I am not on the ball my party suffers. Mobs in most of the game are relatively easy, you go up against 8:4 or 8:6 most of the time. As soon as a mob beats you down in succession you start raging.

Worried about patrols? Park your AI group with a waypoint and whip out your bow and pull that mob back to a safe area where you can decimate them in peace.

If a group keeps re-aggroing when you get close to your team wait until their aggro bubble returns to normal, they are probably in alert mode, any smart group will hang around the area if you might come back.

It may be a little too sensitive, but not to the degree where you rage for hours... in my opinion.

NOTE: As indicated in my original post, they went back to their normal area. I waited 20-30 minutes and posted on here for them to "de-aggro" Then I tried again. Those screens were AFTER waiting. I posted in some other threads while waiting. So that idea is out the window. Any other clever ideas to try and bypass the AI Bug, or can you stop telling people to live with it because ANET is too stuck up or lazy to fix their issues. IDIOTS.

Ok, but patrols come up fast, and sometimes even the best parties wipe. Let's say your monks, MM, and warrior escape, but your mes, dervish, and sin are left for dead. Now you want to rez them, and the MM has rebirth (my MM always carries it). Sadly, you can't rez them, because the instant you come into range on the RADAR SCREEN of the enemy, they aggro across the entire radar to the injured party remanant. This is the issue. I could careless about the monsters running from AoE when their HP is low, that is cool, makes them smart. I could careless about monsters chasing down the monks, spiking. But when I can't rez my team AT ALL and I have to die and incur DP just to respawn, that is ANNOYING. That makes the mission that much harder and longer and tedious, etc etc. Why? Why even have rez spells if you cannot even get close enough to rez? And why run from mobs to escape only to have them chase you into eternity. Oh, I tried Crip shot on a chaser once, he hobbled after me. I would get 2-3 radar lengths ahead of the monk/necro/mesmer chaser, and wait about 45 seconds, and here comes a little red dot. UMM NO? And how does a necro keep pace with a ranger with dodge and zojunn's haste on? 33% faster necro speed boost? did anet introduce Deathly haste or some crappy monster skill that we dont see? I THINK NOT. FIX IT ANET.

BDStyle · Nov 20, 2006, 03:11 PM // 15:11

oh my word, so many people going insane over this.

saying EVERY mob does this is a pile of horse manure. I've had one or two mobs in any given area do it and its usually a boss mob. I've never met an area yet with ai mobs that home in like a bloodhound from another chapter. If what i read is right you guys left pre-searing then was suddenly beset on by a horde of titans, kournan soldiers and the odd shiroken.
Over exageration is the stuff of forums and you guys are proving it.

Now when i am wandering through istan and a bog scale from the river outside of ascalon comes to get me saying
'OYE.. did you look at me from 3 chapters and a timeline away? BRING IT *starts spitting at me*'
Thats when i'll start to think the ai is screwy.

Yes there are a few issues, mainly when heroes get stuck pathfinding through terrain but its not earth shattering is it.

Myria · Nov 20, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

So the end game mobs are hard, I like that. It makes exploring a lot tougher, but I like that if I am not on the ball my party suffers.

I've seen the "your radar is the agro-bubble" behavior several times outside of Senji's whilst leveling heroes, this is most certianly not strictly an end-game behavior. At the very least it seems to be a trait of 'human' enemies, regardless of continent, though whether or not it is limited to them I've no idea.

ForgeWhelp · Nov 20, 2006, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Rahja the Thief as you seem to be REALLY upset by this I'd advise that you simply step away from the game for a month (it's not WoW, you aren't wasting any money) and come back to see if it is 'fixed'. If it's the same then feel sure that it is the intent of Anet and they just hate YOU...

Loviatar · Nov 20, 2006, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Ok, so it has been a month now since Nightfall released. ?

you have about 7 more days for it to be a month.

the 27th is about a week away.

3 weeks does not equal a month

give them some time and dont expect them to drop their work to give an hour by hour update on your problem

Esprit · Nov 20, 2006, 03:47 PM // 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myria

I've seen the "your radar is the agro-bubble" behavior several times outside of Senji's whilst leveling heroes, this is most certianly not strictly an end-game behavior. At the very least it seems to be a trait of 'human' enemies, regardless of continent, though whether or not it is limited to them I've no idea.

If only mobs would come to me more, it would save me the time of actually aggro'ing them.

I've played through the whole game, explored many areas and find it hard to recall mobs acting that way. Either I am lucky or these encounters are very specific. If there is a problem Anet probably is looking into it, and because it seems like a very specific problem that does not occur always it may take some time to find if anything is wrong.

Jecht Scye · Nov 20, 2006, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Anyone ever stop to think that maybe they're too busy trying to fix the issue...

Just calm down and play the game. If you're getting this upset over it then I suggest you take some time off and cool down. You're supposed to be playing it for the fun of it remember...

Alya · Nov 20, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I am adding my voice to those that insist that the AI should be fixed.

Spellcaster enemies (e.g. ice imps, ice golems, fire imps, Summit necros, Mursaats etc.) should NOT (!!!) follow without losing aggro across all map after the player who has Escape (16 sec of 25% speed boost), Dodge (11 sec of 33% speed boost), and Storm Chaser (17 sec of 25% speed boost). These monsters do NOT have any running skills, and in any rate they cannot run as indefinitely long as a ranger.

This happens everywhere, at every map, in any area. This is a bug, and it must be fixed. Period.

*very annoyed with the current AI*

Tauren Arcanist · Nov 20, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

See, there are a couple problems with some of the people posting here. It seems to me that many of you havent been into the games later stages. Area's like the Depths of Madness really are intense area's.

You step into a zone with patrols equivelant to Tombs. The first 3 patrols are fairly simple. Then you hit a large 3 way fork. At this point you have 6 LARGE patrols going in a large circle constantly moving. Not that the monsters in these patrols are anywhere from 4-8 levels above you and have the ability to copy themselves. I know a party of real experienced players wouldn't really have much of a problem but its very difficult to find a pug to just go exploring.

I've also noticed the speed problem quite a bit. I never knew that monks and necro's have speed boosting skills. I factored the idea that some one was using charge but there where no warriors around.

Lord Sojar · Nov 20, 2006, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jecht Scye

Anyone ever stop to think that maybe they're too busy trying to fix the issue...

Just calm down and play the game. If you're getting this upset over it then I suggest you take some time off and cool down. You're supposed to be playing it for the fun of it remember...

They refuse to acknowledge the issue, which is an issue in and of itself. If ANET does not respond to this issue soon enough, they are going to probably lose a large number of players, and those players are the ones that buy their 6 month cycled chapters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDstyle

If what i read is right you guys left pre-searing then was suddenly beset on by a horde of titans, kournan soldiers and the odd shiroken.
Over exageration is the stuff of forums and you guys are proving it.

I guess you can't read. I am in the Realm of Torment. Hooked on Phonics...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tauren Arcanist

See, there are a couple problems with some of the people posting here. It seems to me that many of you havent been into the games later stages. Area's like the Depths of Madness really are intense area's.

You step into a zone with patrols equivelant to Tombs. The first 3 patrols are fairly simple. Then you hit a large 3 way fork. At this point you have 6 LARGE patrols going in a large circle constantly moving. Not that the monsters in these patrols are anywhere from 4-8 levels above you and have the ability to copy themselves. I know a party of real experienced players wouldn't really have much of a problem but its very difficult to find a pug to just go exploring.

I've also noticed the speed problem quite a bit. I never knew that monks and necro's have speed boosting skills. I factored the idea that some one was using charge but there where no warriors around.

Pardon me.... but WTF does this post have to do with ANYTHING? Your talking about mobs and patrols, I am talking about the ENTIRE RADAR BEING THE DAMNED AGGRO BUBBLE. get it through your heads people! you people need to find jesus or something, you can't read. The AI is broken, let me give you a definition of that word.

Broken:

2. to infringe, ignore, or act contrary to (a law, rule, promise, etc.):
6. to destroy or interrupt the regularity, uniformity, continuity, or arrangement of; interrupt:
37. to become inoperative or to malfunction, as through wear or damage:
38. to begin suddenly or violently or change abruptly into something else:

English people, learn it.

The AI has radically changed and is no longer functioning under the normalities of the original concepts.

The skill rebirth as an example to this issue:

Resurrect target party member. Target party member is returned to life with 25% Health and zero Energy, and is teleported to your current location. All of target's skills are disabled for 10...4 seconds. This Spell consumes all of your remaining Energy.

* Rebirth is largely accepted as the best resurrection spell for PvE situations. Due to the severe disadvantages, Rebirth is almost never used in PvP (except in Random Arenas in which teleporting is very beneficial).

* The skill range for Rebirth is the same as any other spell, which is usually big enough to summon a dead ally to your location, away from the aggro range of hostile monsters. While the casting time is shorter than Restore Life by two seconds, Rebirth imposes two huge penalties. First, the spell consumes all the caster's remaining energy upon successful casting, leaving the caster with only Signet of Devotion to heal the resurrected party member. Second, all of the resurrected ally's skills are disabled for a set period of time, depending on the caster's level in Protection Prayers. This period is 4 seconds with 12 in said attribute, though getting extra attribute points from armor and runes will lower it even further to 3 seconds.

* The energy drain on the caster can be ameliorated somewhat by item and armor swapping to chain successive Rebirths. The idea is to get 10 energy back from bonuses right after casting Rebirth. The usual tactic is to cast the first Rebirth while holding an item with a -5 to energy penalty and removing 5 energy worth of armor. The second Rebirth is cast with full armor and no items with energy bonuses. The third Rebirth is cast with an item with an energy bonus of +10, such as a staff. A fourth Rebirth can be cast if one has a focus with a +12+15 energy bonus (the caster must meet the item's attribute requirement).

* Just like Resurrect, this spell returns the dead ally to life with a minimal amount of health and no energy. Because of the teleportation effect, it can be used to summon dead allies across cliffs, ledges, rivers, or any other terrain barrier.

* Due to the teleportation property, Rebirth is quite useful while doing Missions and Quests as the ultimate disaster recovery tool. If a party bites off more than it can chew or is blind-sided by a mob of monsters, Rebirth allows a single survivor in the party to carefully resurrect his/her fallen comrades without having to engage those monsters. It can also be used to extract a dead player from a hostile environment, such as the area of effect of a Mursaat Tower or lava without exposing the caster to unnecessary danger. Rebirth is best used after battle, especially when recovery from complete party death is not possible, such as in Missions or in the Realms of the Gods. Using Rebirth while the fight rages on is inadvisable.

* There is a slight delay between the completion of casting and the teleportation of the target. During that delay, you can move to another location. For example, you can run backwards to create more distance between you and any foes guarding the corpse you are resurrecting. The party member will be teleported to your new location rather than where you cast the spell.

The Radar works as follows:

Compass components

* When in Town/Outpost:
o Light Blue (Dot) - A player not in a group
o Dark Blue (Dot) - A player in a group

* When in explorable zone or mission area:
o Green (Dot) - A player
* PvE Only:
o Red (Dot) - An Enemy NPC (aka mob)
* PvP Only:
o Blue (Dot) - The Blue Team
o Red (Dot) - The Red Team
* Lime Green (Triangle) - A Friendly NPC
* Gray (Dot) - A corpse (not all corpses are shown)

When in a zone or mission, The party leader will get a bar added on the bottom of the compass alowing him/her to specificly send henchmen and heroes of the team to specific areas of his choise without having to move there first.

The Silver Circle in the center of the mini map represents your Danger Zone. If the enemy enters this circle, they will gain aggro and attack you. Use this circle wisely to judge when you are far away enough from a group of targets so you can slip by them. Very important to know if you plan on being a runner.

The compass also shows the quest marker of an active quest. If it is outside of the compass, it's direction (in a straight line) is marked by a green arrowhead at the border of the compass.

Ok, now pay CLOSE ATTENTION.

Rebirth has the range of a cast, aka, only slightly larger the the silver/white inner bubble on the rader, dubbed the "aggro" bubble. Rebirth is used to rescue fallen allies from situations where you cannot survive long enough to run and and rez that ally via half distance rez spell (rez chant) or touch rezzes (restore life) So, assuming we are still on the same track, we can go up to the edge of the aggro bubble making sure the monsters do not fall within it and teleport allies. You can run about 2 secs before they are teleported 2 you, so you run a bit back to insure a slight enemy movement doesnt trigger aggro.

HOWEVER! Since the AI update, there is a slight issue. The entire radar is the aggro radius in many mobs, making it impossible to rez your team using rebirth's teleportation ability. Also the speed boosted enemies make it quite difficult to run away if your party is flanked. I hope THIS explanation helps, because apparently, the other 5 I have done haven't.

If you still are confused and think the AI is fine, do me a favor.

http://stupidangrycanajun.typepad.co...-org-thumb.gif

Print that out and follow the instructions, then reread this thread carefully again. Rinse and repeat until you understand or until your skull cracks and you die. Cheers.

Antheus · Nov 20, 2006, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alya

I am adding my voice to those that insist that the AI should be fixed.

Spellcaster enemies (e.g. ice imps, ice golems, fire imps, Summit necros, Mursaats etc.) should NOT (!!!) follow without losing aggro across all map after the player who has Escape (16 sec of 25% speed boost), Dodge (11 sec of 33% speed boost), and Storm Chaser (17 sec of 25% speed boost). These monsters do NOT have any running skills, and in any rate they cannot run as indefinitely long as a ranger.

This happens everywhere, at every map, in any area. This is a bug, and it must be fixed. Period.

Nowhere has ever been stated, that running skills make you lose agro. That's just how it worked before.

After doing some Vabbi missions yesterday on ele, I noticed that tanking still works (on those mobs) like it did. Even better, mobs don't start running around like crazy the momeny an AoE hits them.

Heroes and henchies are stupid. No change to AI will change that. For this reason, having even a small number of real players results in much easier playing.

Agro ranges have been changed for certain mobs. But it's nothing new. This has been like that in tombs and some other places. After initial agro, their agro bubble increases by about 4 times.

In addition, mobs now react to attacks of any group member, so killing spirits agroes as well, and they often react to someone crossing their patrol paths. Both of these are somewhat mission specific, but a bit of caution over patrols helps.

Henchies will charge and agro mobs slightly out of agro range. It helps to set heroes to guard, monks on avoid combat. Devona is notorious for charging out in the blue, but often for a good reason, focusing straight on the mob healer. Problems occur, when this healer runs 2 or 3 agro bubbles away. Overall, Devona has good tanking attitude, but it sometimes results in typical wammo behaviour.

There are some bugs - minions tend to lag behind, often several agro bubbles. Some of henchie casters like to attack first, minions are also agro happy with certain mobs and group configurations.

As always, humans can think, learn, adapt and fall back. AI, will never learn, always repeat the same mistakes, and always have same flaws. The best way to adapt is to avoid situations in which you can run into these issues.

Some missions are annoying with full henchie team. Some are much easier than with human team. Use the best for each situation.

Myria · Nov 20, 2006, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

If only mobs would come to me more, it would save me the time of actually aggro'ing them.

Not really, the behavior only occurs after a near-wipe, after you've run from the group.

Quote:

I've played through the whole game, explored many areas and find it hard to recall mobs acting that way.

If I hadn't decided to level-up heroes in that area, thus going out with a far less than optimal group, I probably never wouldn't have noticed it either.

If you care to try for yourself, go out of Senji's with a couple of heroes and a couple of henchies -- five is generally a good group size there. Go to the bridge Oreson comes running across, kill him and his guys. Go across the bridge and kill the group before the next bridge. Go across that bridge and wait until you can agro at least two of the three Jade Brotherhood groups there. Hang back and keep swapping targets until your henchies/heroes start dropping and the Jade Brotherhood turns its attention to you. Run away, they'll usually chase you over that bridge and about halfway over the next bridge. Wait until they turn around and go back to their various patrol routes, Now when you go back to res/rebirth your fallen henchies, as soon as you get within radar range the Jade Brotherhood will start high-tailing it towards you. Sometimes if you wait long enough this behavior will stop and you can rebirth as usual. Other times, well whatever "long enough" might be, if there is such a thing, it's far too long.

Quote:

Either I am lucky or these encounters are very specific.

Near-wipes are fairly rare for most players, I should think, total wipes or total survival being more common. And, as I said, it does, at least in my experience, seem to be a function of 'human' mobs, which leaves out a lot of areas.

Quote:

If there is a problem Anet probably is looking into it,[...]

Your faith is touching.

Frankly I doubt it is a problem from their perspective. As Ms. Gray is fond of saying "it's working as intended", the question is only what the intent might be.

Quote:

[...] and because it seems like a very specific problem that does not occur always it may take some time to find if anything is wrong.

This is only one of a number of questionable AI behaviors -- Super-speed with no buffs, anyone? -- few of which are difficult to discern.

LiamR · Nov 20, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

To the OP, it's only a bug in a game. A GAME. Not real life, a game. Not a life or death matter. It's a game. Go outside, make some friends. See that? It's the sun.

mrcake · Nov 20, 2006, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by LiamR

To the OP, it's only a bug in a game. A GAME. Not real life, a game. Not a life or death matter. It's a game. Go outside, make some friends. See that? It's the sun.

The thing i think that annoys most people is anets silence on this, look in the game and dev section and the last thing that was said about this was on the 11th of this month.

Gaile said she would pass it to the team and see if the stuff is intended and what the timeline would be for a fix if it is not.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10075912

As of yet there has been no confirmation if it is intended or if it isnt how long a fix is.

chessyang · Nov 20, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Rahja,

good points made in your OP. and thanks for the weekend game. I'm not much for riddles.

i can see it now.....

Update - Wednesday November 22
* Fixed a bug that prevented Monster AI to there original locations.

-Monk-
* Shield of Absorption - Reduce length

ForgeWhelp · Nov 20, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Well Gaile has stated there is an update planned for tomorrow, so who knows...

Enchanted Warrior · Nov 20, 2006, 04:49 PM // 16:49

I was thinking about this last night, it seems like now instead of relying on you touchuing them with your agro circle the enemies use a "Line of sight" method that allows them to "see" you and respond. I have been only close enough to see Kournan soldiers and they co me flying down off the hills etc, and I just realized they were any where near. I do not think this is a bug, it's part of the anti farm and anti runner changes.

But what do we know, we just paid to play, it's not like we have any say in things lol

Gli · Nov 20, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

I've seen certain mobs aggroing from very far away ever since I started playing, about 18 months ago. This only ever happens to groups you've aggroed before. I always assumed this was intended behaviour. They just remember you are sneaking around somewhere.

The casters on speed thing is weird though, that can't be right. I haven't seen it myself, I never leave anything alive in my wake to follow me back to wherever.